So, you're Peggy Chau, and you are head instructor of Wu Mui Kung Fu?
Yeah, we call it Ng Mui [pronounced eng moy] Kung Fu, that's the correct Cantonese.

So you're from –
Hong Kong. I was here when I was seven. So I was raised in Chinatown.

Oh really? New York City Chinatown?
New York City Chinatown. Always hang around with Chinese, things like that. And my mother.

When did you start learning martial arts?
Ten years old. I started with judo. Back then I couldn't do much. Everybody's bigger than me, I was very small. It takes power to throw people. I could do some but not a lot. Then I think about a year or so, the teacher, he had to move. So then I stopped. And then start again at age 14. Kung fu.

And that's in this style of Ng Mui.
No, it's called Wah Lum. Wah Lum Shaolin Praying Mantis. It was Northern Praying Mantis.

Praying Mantis is a very aggressive style, right? Sort of hard, exterior kind of style? Is that right or no?
It was exterior. I don't think it's very aggressive.

So you trained in that for how long?
Only six months because the teacher also have to move back to Boston. As a matter of fact he's got pretty famous now. He's in Florida, Boston. And his daughter [Mimi Chan], she had something to do with Mulan -

Oh, with the Disney movie?
Yeah. She was featured in Inside Kung Fu.

What was that teacher's name?
Chan Pui.

So you did that for six months and then you found another teacher?
Yeah, at that time he was based at the Fu Jow Pai place, so then of course, those people tell me since he's gone why don't you just join us, Fu Jow Pai, the house style. So I did Fu Jow Pai. I forgot how long I did that. Simultaneously my brother was taking Hung Ga, Chan Tai-Hing Hung Ga. Traditional Hung Ga. He's a descendant of the Wong Fei Hung sect.

Is that the same as -
Yee's Hung Ga? No.

But related, just a different branch?
Yeah, different branch.

So how long did you train in that?
About a year. I did a lot of exhibitions. They do a lot of lion dance over there. After that – okay, after that, my brother suggested maybe I should try a northern style. For girls, maybe it's good. There's kicks, more high kicks and all that. It was called Jiu Lun – Seven Star Praying Mantis. So that is almost, not quite the same as the first one, but there are similarities. There's a lot of forms, also. All these kung fu styles I been to, they never teach you how to fight.

Really? Just forms?
Yeah. Just all forms. And if you ask them, I don't know if they know it themselves. They don't show you anything. One time I had a streetfight, just to check out – not that I was the bully -

Somebody attacked you?
Yeah, somebody bigger than me. Because I thought I know some skills, I don't want to take somebody my size. I want to take somebody which I would have harder time with, of course. Some big girl. And I couldn't use any of those kung fu because I was never taught, I was just naturally vicious. You understand? If you have that kind of viciousness, just go at it. So we share in a couple of punches, and she have a small bleeding mouth. But then she caught me in the hair, and I did not know how to release the hold. We got on the ground and somebody broke us up, a guy. So that was that. It was a very very good experience. That way I know where I'm at, and that those kung fu never taught me how to fight, except that I just know how to fight. That was right before I did the praying mantis.

About how old were you at the time?
Sixteen. Even though they didn't teach me fighting I always sparred because I like to fight. At least learn to fight. Not that I want to make trouble, that type of fight. So I always spar with this guy who's bigger than me. Just to block and everything, you get all boost up. So that was good. It was a good workout. But then my mom's friend, he said the teacher was doing something, wasn't so good. Not to the students, but he have his own issues that he was doing that, to Chinese -

He was involved in something illegal?
Yeah, exactly. Something like that. So then I quit. Then at 17 my brother was very involved with, there was a Chinese kung fu federation, you know, eastern federation. They have Chan Tai-Hing, and all those Chinese dignitaries, martial arts dignitaries, they form a federation. They did exhibitions, things like that. He even did a martial arts show on Broadway with Ron Van Clief. At that time, in the 70's, he was famous.

Martial arts was big back then, right? It was kind of like “the thing.”
Yeah, Kung Fu Fighting, and Kung Fu TV series. It was when Bruce Lee just died, 1973. And I studied Ng Mui in 1974. My brother met the master of Wu Mui, or Ng Mui, he met him when he performed at the tai chi association, which still exists on Canal St. They have every year the annual celebration, Double 10 we call it, October 10. They always have a show and some refreshments. I haven't been in touch with them, I don't know if they still do it. They also have tai chi performance, and they have a few guests from outside. So my brother met him, he see this old man like 72 years old, and he would do the plum flower form. It looked like he was ice skating, very very fast, very very smooth. So he know, wow, this is it. My brother's always been looking for THE style. Something practical for fighting. My brother brought my mother and myself to visit the Ng Mui master, Master Xiao Pang. So my mother suggested everybody should get discipleship from him. It's very very powerful. And this is how I started in Ng Mui.

So it was your mother that kind of pushed you in that direction?
Yeah.

Was she also a martial artist?
No, but she always liked it. This goes all the way back to our grandfather. Grandfather's a very eccentric guy. At that time, my grandfather had four wives. They still have concubines and stuff like that back then. So of course then they have many kids. They would come home, and he would ask the children, “Who's the best fighter?” [laughs] And then oh, wrong question! Then all the kids will fight.

Boys and girls?
Boys and girls. Especially the girls that were more aggressive, like my mother. They would all fight. So that's why, even since that generation, we always praise good fighters. Or good martial artists. We always praise them. So – that's why my mother didn't say anything like, oh you're, you're woman, you're female, you're not supposed to learn martial arts, you're supposed to stay home. It's not in my mother's way of thinking.

On your website it says that Ng Mui is based on Daoist philosophy, yin and yang, the theory of changes. How does that apply to martial arts, how you practice?
First of all, yin and yang means the exact opposite. So, yin and yang could be long range/short range, soft and hard, fast and slow, round motion or straight motions. So, if you talk about Yi Jing, at first there's nothing, and forms in two parts. The two parts then becomes yin and yang, exact opposites. Then it forms five elements. You know what the five elements is?

Wood, water, fire, metal, and earth, right?
Right, exactly. And each one nourishes another, and each one controls another. So first of all our stance is based on the Yi Jing. We can go all directions. As you can see, almost ninety-nine percent of the martial arts fight in a straight line. We don't fight in a straight line, we fight on more of an angle, and we can move up to a hundred and eighty degrees. Sometimes, because of your angle turning, you can miss a very powerful incoming force. Or, because you're moving, the guy will hit empty space. But this is only on a flat surface, so when we jump up and jump down, that's another sphere. In all angles, that means your footwork can go to all angles and all spheres. When you land, it goes back to the earth. It becomes your center immediately. So each time you face your opponent, you are the center. It's like a protractor – you always face your opponent. This way, we don't lose balance. So that's one of the Yi Jing principles of Ng Mui.

Do you do any healing arts, like massage and acupuncture?
I don't, but I always try to understand about it. I have a basic understanding because of my own interest. I have a herbal Chinese dictionary, so I know most of the general herbs, what they do. But we don't do healing – Ng Mui is designed for fighting. Some other styles, they have a healing aspect, but we don't. Because we have high potency of fighting, we conduct a lot of heat. Other styles will do expansion, when you breathe air, they use that as an energy source. But we do it very differently. We compact, and suck it in. You know, when you super suck in, what happens? It's like a jet engine, like a rocket. We boil inside. You know how big the intestines are, when you take it out, right? They have a lot of air, so we condense that air, and compact. So then, when you release, the body goes [up] to heaven and [down to] earth, and the limbs will shoot out. Once it shoots out, it's like bow and arrow, we don't let it stay there. Our style looks like a rubber band. All the limbs are all locked.

You mean...
All the limbs. Lock all the joints. In order to conduct such speed and power, we also fight against ourselves, meaning, as much power goes out, so much power must remain like a pillar, so you are intact when you throw such a force out. But only for a split second. If you lock all the time, you can't move. Then you'll be rigid like a robot.

So you mean just for a split second.
It's only a split second. So that's what it means by the yin and yang. Yin and yang, yin and yang, yin and yang.

So it's constantly changing?
Constantly changing. Honestly, it's a hard style to study. It is an internal style, but this internal style is hard to study. It takes minute coordination. Very minute.

When you talk about compressing the stomach and the intestines, that doesn't have to do with breath? Because it seems like when you breathe out--
No, it doesn't have to do with breath at all. That's different about our style. I can do the winding of my abdomen and still I can talk to you, because I let the diaphragm do its natural breathing. But the compression is in the lower dantian. If you are a martial artist, you notice – for instance the karate teacher will do huh! huh! you know, each time. But in reality, it's involuntary. When you're doing fighting, you cannot control your breath. You cannot do like when you doing a form, it's entirely different. So Ng Mui is totally based on the moment of contact. It's very scientific. Everything is during that contact. Because it divides in Yi Jing. The Yi Jing is about changes. Its about changes and it's about growing. You ever see the Yi Jing?

Yeah, the hexagrams?
Each topic, each one you start, can branch out. You see the bong sau and tan sau of wing chun? Bong sau tan sau, bong sau tan sau? They break it into choppy motions. To us they're choppy. But the whole bong sau is right here. [demonstrates] Bong sau, tan sau, everything. The elbows, everything. You can do it very small. You can even accelerate. See but you do it very small you can accelerate to big. Start big, you can accelerate to small. So why do it small, it depends on where you want to go. You can hit limbs. [demonstrates] Sometimes I might not want to go where your face or your center is. Sometimes, big guy, I might want to break you down in the limbs first, before I enter.

When you go for the limbs, is that just to soften someone up and break them down, or is there a specific point you're going for? For instance if you hit a point on the Heart channel, you can affect the internal organs...
Definitely. My sifu didn't go into details with that, but definitely. I'm sure his ancestors absolutely know all those points. Back then, a few hundred years ago, the Chinese do all those pressure points. So that's why it becomes very secretive. But what happens? All they know becomes a secret, but eventually they have nothing left. But it's still a secret. But actually, it's a lot of new martial arts that came out that's very good, like Systema. They all open up, like jujitsu. If you go to a very traditional style, behind closed doors, a lot of secrecy. But it's not that much content. Back then, if you see like Crouching Tiger? It was a different society then. They can actually do powerful things without touching you. They can really do it.

Do you train for that kind of stuff, or do you feel like that's not useful? Does it have application, is it worthwhile to pursue?
It's not worth my while to pursue. Because number one, you live in a normal society like New York City. Second, I run a ten thousand square foot facility. It takes all my time and energy. I myself don't even teach the art so very often. Just once in a blue moon I teach and correct them. I just let my student teach it. But definitely I would like to go back into teaching. But if I teach, I would need to promote all over again. We were just talking about the art, but it's a very esoteric art. Nobody knows about it. If you want to let people know about it, you have to do a lot of marketing. It's different from a style that already has an inheritance. That means somebody already did the marketing, already made it famous. Like wing chun, Bruce Lee made it famous. Brazilian jujitsu came very explosive in the UFC. Other styles, even the knife fighting, in that movie The Hunter, they make that style famous. They've already done the marketing for them.

You run the Fighthouse. How many groups do you have practicing here?
Anywhere from eighteen to twenty groups. Sometimes more, sometimes less. People come and go. In martial arts, people are doing what they love to do. To get people to stay, they have to have a real core group. Otherwise, they can't manage. I have to collect rent. It's very hard. But it's a happy business. People come here after work, and they are already very happy because they're excited about workout, they want to work out, or they're excited about what they're going to learn. Because they're seeing the teacher, and they're seeing their fellow students, they're already very happy for that social activity. So I have a happy business. It's not like a hospital. Or a law firm. [laughs] It's recreational. A happy business.

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